tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC July 16, 2015 5:00pm-6:01pm PDT
"hardball" for now. our coverage continues on "all in with chris hayes." tonight on "all in" -- >> we are conducting this as an act of domestic terrorism. >> a mass murder in tennessee. four marines killed the alleged gunman is dead. tonight we're learning more about the motive. we'll go to chattanooga for the latest. then, the verdict in the colorado theater shooting is in. we'll go to aurora for the latest. plus the president makes history inside an american prison. >> these are young people who made mistakes that aren't that different than the mistakes i made. >> and all in america water wars. there is a knockdown, drag-out fight over bottled water, and we got inside the bottling plant. >> why should you be able to do this in the midst of this resource stream? >> "all in" starts right now.
good evening from castaic lake in california. we're here as part of our week-long series of the crucial water shortage in this state but we begin tonight with breaking news. this morning a gunman apparently acting alone opened fire at two military offices in chattanooga, tennessee, killing four marines. the gunman was also killed. that alleged gunman has now been identified as 24-year-old mohammod youssuf abdulazeez. officials say he is a naturalized u.s. citizen born in kuwait. according to the "chattanooga times free press" this is a bobbing photo of abdulazeez from april, 2015 dui arrest. at about 10:30 this morning, shots rang out at a recruitment center at a strip mall where five branches of the military reportedly have adjoining offices. later, seven miles away shots were fired at a navy and marine corps center. it is there that four marines were killed along with the shooter. three other people were also injured in today's shooting. president obama was briefed on the incident and spoke just
hours ago. >> at this point a full investigation is taking place. the fbi will be in the lead working closely with local law enforcement. we've also been in contact with the department of defense to make sure that all our defense facilities are properly attentive and vigilant. my main message right now is obviously the deepest sympathies of the american people to the four marines that have been killed. it is a heartbreaking circumstance. >> joining me now, nbc news correspondent gabe gutierrez. gabe, how much do we know about how this unfolded and at what point law enforcement or marine or navy officials knew what was happening? >> reporter: well chris, good evening. yeah, that is the big question right now, exactly when -- there
was no advance warning of this we're told. witnesses here at the scene were here at the strip mall you mentioned that was the site of the first shooting scene around 10:35 in the morning. witnesses say that they heard a quick succession of loud noises they weren't even sure they were gunshots at the very beginning. they thought it was some sort of construction work or something that was making all that noise. but as you mentioned, the shooting started here. there were more than 25 rounds that were fired at this location. then the gunman moved on to another location seven miles away that reserve center and that was where four marines lost their lives. amazingly at this location everyone inside the building survived. there was at least one officer -- or one military officer that was wounded in the leg. now, as you can see behind me the fbi is now on the scene. they're taking the lead in this investigation. the big question right now is what exactly the motive is. federal officials, as you reported, are treating this as an act of domestic terrorism, but they're looking to see if he may have been inspired by
someone outside the country perhaps. at this point we just don't know. this evening officials have been going through his home near chattanooga to see what they can learn from here and they'll be going through who he spoke with in the last couple of weeks, what type of e-mail communications he may have had. so all those are questions right now that we're hoping to learn more about. chris. >> gabe so you're saying that first location this was essentially it sounds like a drive-by. he did not -- we don't know but it appears he didn't even get out of the car, but a huge amount of gunfire was aimed into that center. miraculously no one was killed there. then a second location. if nothing else it does seem at this early point this was highly targeted in terms of where the alleged gunman was going. >> reporter: well it would appear so chris. i mean he targeted two military offices. those were his two targets. there were no shots fired in any other locations. and again, he fired more than 25 shots at this location alone and then moved on to that other
location. so yes, federal officials are treating this as this was a targeted mass murder. he was apparently trying to inflict great damage at these military offices and he succeeded, unfortunately. and right now the big question is why he did so. chris. >> i imagine, gabe there's a tremendous sense of shock in chattanooga. we saw some of the local official its talking, and tremendous grief among members of the marines and their families there. we do not know yet the names of those who were killed but there's got to be just a tremendous sense of grief washing over those folks down there. >> reporter: immense grief here. it's a very somber scene here at this parking lot. the other scene is blocked off. but local officials here are just devastated by this. people from this town we've been seeing them come to the scene throughout the afternoon, throughout the evening, and there's a small makeshift
memorial with lots of american flags. people here in this area -- this was a targeted attack it appears on the military. and these are people that you know serve this country. it appears somebody targeted them for that. and this community is devastated. there's a lot of questions right now about why, how this could have happened and as we learn more about that over the next coming days what we can tell you right now is there are several prayer services scheduled for tonight and many people around here are grieving. chris. >> all right. gabe gutierrez, thank you so much for that reporting. joining me now by phone is the board member of the islamic society for greater chattanooga. mr. issa i imagine you're reeling in shock at this as well? >> yes, we are. terrible shock. we as americans, as tennesseeans, as muslims of chattanooga, we are totally shocked, in full disbelief.
we strongly condemn this heinous act and powerless act, and we reach out to the families of our beloved marines. they're our sons too. we probably see them in the streets all the time and we do feel this as our own loss and we are very very furious for what happened. >> i know, mr. issa that you've conducted a lot of tremendous interfaith work down there through the society in sort of reaching across different kind of religious lines. chattanooga -- how do you see chattanooga reacting to this as the sort of facts come to be known? >> chattanooga is our city. most of us have been living here for tens of years. i personally have been living here for 41 years, since i was young, 19 years old.
and chattanooga has been exemplary. chattanoogans have helped us out through the process when we built the islamic center support from local media support from all the churches the jewish community and we have interfaith relationships and meetings all the time and gathering at our place or their place. they let us in holidays in their churches and it's just a wonderful city. and this heinous act has just put a very dark spot on what happened. but i believe that we will go through the process together as chattanoogans, as americans, and we'll overcome this domestic
terrorism. what happened we don't know, but basically we're just shocked. we don't know what else to say right now. >> all right. thank you very much for joining me tonight, i really appreciate it. >> thank you very much. all right. joining me now, karen greenberg, director of the center on national simultaneous and mark fulman national affairs editor for mother jones. karen, there's been some reports about possibly -- the daily beast said a possible blog post from the alleged shooter that was sort of religious in nature although not violent in any way. to take a step back for a second, because we don't know the specific details here although obviously the targeting is pretty obvious, it appears. the fear of people acting alone and using guns has been something law enforcement has been talking about quite a bit over the last few months is that right? >> that's correct. and they have been talking about it largely in the context of isis-related cases, but not solely isis-related cases.
>> and we also have -- >> go ahead. >> we also have -- if you can sort of walk us through what the kind of scope of those cases have been these kinds of lone wolf plots, whether thwarted or not, independent of what we're just now learning about today's shooting. >> right. what's interesting about today's shooting in the larger context of these lone wolf attempts that the fbi has disrupted or that they think were about to happen or those that have happened is that there is -- there seems to be an age around 20 to 25 of individuals who get inspired for whatever reasons to partake in a one-off violence that is gun related rather than explosive related, as we saw in the past with al qaeda type of crimes that is aimed at military officers, at law enforcement and other officials, whether they're federal or state officials. so you're seeing a crossover of the kinds of things that isis is
asking for and what domestic terrorism has often looked like which is attacks not on civilians, but attacks targeted against these officials at a variety of different levels. so the discomfort here is that part of this the look of this without knowing the narrative and without knowing the exact specifics is that the age, the target seems to be what we've been seeing from the isis-related cases. which raises the larger question of what is this really all about in the context of american society. if you look at the isis cases, there's 62 incidences since the past 15 months. what you will find is that they are not really profileable. they are not from the middle east they are not of arab descent for the most part they are individuals, 80% of them are american citizens. only 10% of those are naturalized american citizens. they are of all colors. they are of all religious backgrounds. and so if this is a much larger
and profound problem that raises questions about the vulnerability of our youth to a variety of messages and to guns that allow them to express their anger in a context that seems to be increasingly destabilizing for them. >> mark you've covered mass shootings and obviously in the case of the last few attacks, even the one in canada the thwarted attack happened the pam geller event, these were not explosives, they were not large conspiracies that involved a large number of people attempting to do something logistically complicated, like procuring fertilizer or something like that. guns have been the implement of choice, whether it's dylann roof in charleston or the attack today. >> that's right, chris. you know we're seeing the same thing unfold today that we've seen so many times recently. i think if we set aside the ideological motivation what's interesting here is as karen said, you do have a number of
things that seem to fit a familiar profile, and yet there is no way to profile the people that do this. but there is a common denominator. i'm struck today thinking about this is a day where we're getting a guilty verdict in the aurora mass shooting three years ago. the massacre in charleston south carolina, is still fresh on everyone's minds. there's still evidence emerging in that case. now we have this attack today in chattanooga. and, you know in some ways they appear to be different in terms of motivation in terms of specific context. and yet it's all young men who carry these attacks out and they all had really powerful firearms. that is a common denominator in all of these kinds of attacks that we have been seeing which have been increasing in recent years in the united states. if you look at the data we've studied a lot at mother jones, and there is a distinct increase in this type of violence going on in our society now. >> karen, is there any ability when you're talking about an individual just by himself, i think of dylann roof who it apparently was kind of -- had
become part of this internet community of white supremacists but it's unclear whether there was anyone else. it appears he was just alone. how able are authorities to interrupt something that a person, an individual takes on by themselves if there's no conspirators, no one else they're plotting with? >> it's increasingly difficult, and that's what today's incident really shows, because the fbi is not unattentive these days to the possibility of shooters. and so what we're learning now, i think, is that everybody is going to have to pitch in as constructive a way as possible. law enforcement can only bear a part of the burden whend criminal activity or a desire for criminal activity. for the most part this puts a tremendous burden on community services, on parents, on social services to help individuals so that they are dealing with some of these issues before they get to the point that law enforcement has them on their
radar. >> mark could you imagine a politics around guns that is different if they are seen increasingly as essentially the tool by which these kinds of attacks are implemented? >> it's an interesting question chris. you know i think recently we published a major investigation on the costs of gun violence which is -- normally we look at these tragedies through the lens of tragedy, of human loss and it's profound, it's devastating. everyone is expressing shock again today. but, you know if you look at the costs of these events economically, they're huge too. i started to wonder recently if that would change the conversation. if there's a growing fear that this is happening related to international affairs with the wars in the middle east perhaps that changes the way you think about it people think about it. but on the other hand we know how just incredibly entrenched the politics of this issue are, and it's also difficult to
imagine people really starting to have a more open-mindinged debate about this in terms of the national discussion around gun regulations. >> karen greenberg and mark follman, thank you so much. still ahead, there is news tonight from aurora colorado where a jury renders verdicts in the movie trial of the movie theater shooter, james holmes. plus another historic moment in the obama presidency. this time he does it with bipartisan support. there's new polling tonight showing donald trump pulling away from the republican field as he starts to viciously attack them on twitter. later, i took a look at one of the most controversial products in drought-stricken california, bottled water. stay with us. zero heartburn! prilosec otc. the number 1 doctor-recommended frequent heartburn medicine for 9 straight years. one pill each morning. 24 hours. zero heartburn. ♪ ♪ ♪
it has been a week since the contentious debate in south carolina which ended with the confederate battle flag being taken down from the state house grounds in columbia but for some americans the issue is not over. take a look at the scene which greeted the president of the united states last night outside his hotel. a small group of protesters
waving large confederate flags. it was quickly denounced by officials in oklahoma, including tom cole who said in a statement i was shocked and disappointed by those who showed up to wave confederate flags soon after president obama arrived in oklahoma. their actions were not only disappointing but disrespectful, insensitive and embarrassing to the entire state. no president should ever be confronted by such behavior especially when the purpose of the visit was to recognize some of our state's greatest achievements. more on that historic visit coming up. you owned your car for four years. you named it brad. you loved brad.
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the july 2012 shooting rampage at a midnight screening of "the dark knight" movie in aurora colorado. 12 people were killed 70 more wounded. holmes' lawyers had acknowledged that their client carried out the attack but holmes pleaded not guilty by reason of insapt with the defense citing his dlugs delusion that each person he killed would increase his self-worth. police said he knew what he was doing was wrong and he meticulously planned the attack. holmes could now face the death penalty for his crime. joining me now, msnbc correspondent scott cohn. scott, the jury basically didn't have to decide if but why essentially. if this was someone who essentially knew the difference between right and wrong could understand what he was doing. how was that case made? >> reporter: well the case by the defense was made in sort of clinical terms, much different from the prosecution, which played to the jury's emotions
throughout its case. the defense calling the psychiatrist who basically -- who literally wrote the book on schizophrenia to talk about how holmes was in the throes of mental illness that went back to a suicide attempt when he was 11 years old. despite the planning that he put into it that too was a symptom of this mental illness, of not knowing right from wrong, and that was what was controlling him. obviously the jury didn't buy it. >> yeah the prosecution's case rested very heavily on that planning as a means of essentially them trying to show that he knew what he was doing. what was that case like? >> reporter: well that was just that, and there was so much from his notebook to the fact that all of his purchases of the weapons and the explosives and everything that he did the fact that he armed -- he armored himself, dressed in armor to
avoid being killed himself when he carried out this attack to the calm way he went into -- he bought a ticket went into the theater, made the display of sort of using a cell phone to get to the door that he then ultimately propped open so he could come back in armed and open fire almost exactly three years ago. it was so meticulously planned, the prosecution argued that this was someone who did know the difference of right from wrong and that's obviously what the jury sided with. >> the reason this trial took so long to actually go to trial was because of a series of legal battles over whether he was fit to stand trial. does the defense now have recourse in terms of appeals on the decision that he was in fact fit? >> reporter: well we don't know yet what the grounds for appeal will be but it's a fair bet there will be lots of them. colorado does not have much of a record of carrying out executions, only one since the 1970s, and so it's clear that
holmes' ultimate mat fate may not be known for a while if the jury decides to go ahead and order the death penalty. that sentencing phase begins next week. >> scott cohn, thank you very much, appreciate it. still ahead, president obama visited a federal prison today to get a firsthand look at the rate of incarceration for nonviolent criminals. that's next. ♪ ♪ ♪ it took serena williams years to master the two handed backhand. but only one shot to master the chase mobile app.
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be in prison and i don't have tolerance for violent criminals. many of them may have made mistakes, but we need to keep our communities safe. on the other hand, when we're looking at nonviolent offenders, we have to reconsider whether 20-year, 30-year life sentences for nonviolent crimes is the best way for us to solve these problems. >> today an image never before seen in the history of the country, the president of the united states inside a federal prison. barack obama became the first sitting president to do that today, touring el reno federal correctional institution in oklahoma. after meeting with inmates, the president seemed to reflect on a life that could have been referencing his own experiences with marijuana and cocaine when he was much younger. >> thesise are young people that made mistakes that aren't that different from the mistakes i made and the mistakes that a lot of you guys make.
the difference is they did not have the kinds of support structures the second chances, the resources that would allow them to survive those mistakes. >> today's visit was part of an effort to further highlight the president's agenda of criminal justice reform, which the president laid out in a speech to the naacp on tuesday, a day after he commuted the sentences of 46 nonviolent drug offenders. it's kind of hard to imagine that 20 years ago a democratic president pushing to shorten sentences and reduce incarceration would feel that he had the political room to do it. now it seems that having the world's largest prison population full of racial discrepancies, is increasingly seen as a policy failure, even as a source of national shame. there seems to be surprising support from both democrats and republicans to do something about it. >> bipartisan bill criminal justice reform will you allow that to move forward in your house? >> absolutely.
>> so you'll let that on the floor? >> i'd like to see it on the floor. we've got a lot of people in prison frankly, that really in my view really don't need to be there. it's expensive. the housed prisoners, sometimes frankly some of these people are in there under what i'll call flimsy reasons. and so i think it's time that we review this process they have and i'm looking forward to putting these recommendations on the floor. >> joining me now, anthony graves who spent 18 years behind bars for murder. in 2010 all murder charges against him were dropped and he was released from jail. he was formally exonerated in 2011. now he's working for the city of houston to help prevent wrongful convictions. mr. graves the image today of the president in that prison was very striking and i was surprised to learn that he was the first president to make this kind of visit. what did you make of the symbolism of this visit? >> i think it's time. i mean i think it's time that it goes all the way to the top in
terms of the concern, because we do have a lot of people in prison that shouldn't be there. we have a lot of people in prison that's mentally ill. we have a lot of people in prison just because they didn't have any resources to afford the justice that we initiate in this country. so i am -- i am definitely proud of my president. i'm excited to see that he is pushing for reform and i'd like for him to continue. >> part of what was striking about the image is there was a period of time in the country's politics when they were the most kind of angry about crime and criminals in which it was very easy and very cheap for politicians to dehumanize the people in prison to call them monsters or superhuman. you're someone who's spent a lot of time around prisoners. and what today seemed to be was in some ways about humanizing them. what do you think people don't understand about the folks that are in prison? >> that they're someone's child, they're someone's father they're someone's brother, they're someone's sister
they're someone's mother and they made a mistake. i mean a mistake for five minutes of your life shouldn't sum you up to be a bad person. it seems like in the system that's what we do. we take a five-minute mistake and sum them up to be a monster after that. i just think it's unfair. >> there's a lot of people watching this who say that five-minute mistake might have resulted in something horrible for someone else injury death, a loss of something, and that's going to stay with them for life. what do you say to folks that have that response particularly when that ends up being so much of the emotional core of this debate we have about crime? >> i say that our system shouldn't become a criminal just because we're trying to arrest and convict a criminal. our criminal justice system has now become criminal. i mean look i'm death row exonoree 148.
our criminal justice system has become the criminal and i say to those says that those five minutes may have taken someone's life for the rest of their life sure, yes, but that person needs help. that person needs to figure out why he did that. he can't do that in solitary confinement. i met men back there who had made grave mistakes and was so remorseful they was reaching out to the public trying to make amends for it. if you're going to sentence him to death and murder him, even though his life still has value, we won't know that. a young man that i know reached out to young men that were in gangs from behind bars shared his story with them about his life, and these same young men that he reached out to put down their flags and started picking up books. they went to college because they did not want to be like the man who was writing them telling them not to be like him. so we give up on people too quick, that's just it. >> you're in houston, and it
seems to me there's kind of two conversations happening. a lot of this is national. the president, john boehner, there's some bipartisan support for this idea but most of the people in prison aren't in federal prisons. most of what our criminal justice system does is at the local level like the prosecutor's office who prosecuted you. from your perspective down in texas, in houston, do you feel like the rhetoric and the language around this is changing. >> yes, i do. i do because i get out and i talk to people. i crisscross the globe, particularly in the state of texas, i crisscross texas and i talk to students and i talk to church leaders and i talk to our politicians and i can tell you that the rhetoric is changing. people are getting concerned, because too many people every time you look up is walking out of prison after spending 30 and 40 years for crimes they did not commit. >> now, in houston you are now working, if i understand it correctly, with one of the bodies that oversees the
forensics in houston. it's precisely that misuse of forensic evidence that landed you on death row wrongfully for 18 years. >> yeah. i'm with the houston forensic science center and our job is to make sure the is are dotted the ts are crossed and everybody is playing fair. i'm going to be right there to make sure that's what's happened. >> anthony graves houston forensic science center, thank you so much. >> thank you, sir. still ahead in, drought-stricken california there's a nasty fight over bottled water. tonight we bring you to the front lines inside the nestle bottling plant. and donald trump's vicious twitter assault on his republican rivals has officially begun. we'll tell you which senator he called a dummy and which ex-governor he wants to take an iq test, next. plumbers carpenters and even piano tuners... were just as simple? thanks to angie's list now it is. start shopping online... ...from a list of top rated providers. visit angieslist.com today.
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development and anything financial, i blow them away. can you imagine, i'm dealing with bush. if i don't win that one, i think i'm going to just quit. i'm going to win the hispanic vote. bush isn't going to win, even though he'll say five words in spanish. no, he's not going to win because he's not going to put anybody to work. >> when you've got more than 15 republicans running for president, it is inevitable you're going to see candidates taking shots at the lead dog. the problem for them is the current lead dog has a nasty bite. a new poll from fox news shows donald trump leading the pack in the gop presidential race with 18% support. trump, who just wrapped up a campaign event in new hampshire today attacked senator john mccain, who lamented to the new yorker that at a recent event in arizona, trump had, quote, fired up the crazies. trump fired up the twitter, first calling on mccain to apologize for calling his supporters crazy and then writing, quote, senator john mccain should be defeated in the primaries. graduated last in his class at annapolis.
dummy, exclamation point. but the donald was not finished. he also went after gop presidential rival rick perry who said in a statement today that trump has been offering up a toxic mix of demagogue reand mon sense. trump shot back that perry doesn't understand what the word demagoguery means and governor perry failed on the border. he should be forced to take an iq test before being allowed to enter the gop debate. trump's polling suggests he will easily qualify for that first gop debate which takes place next month on fox in which only the candidates polling in the top ten nationally will be allowed onstage. perry, by contrast is polling around just 2% and faces the real prospect of being left out of the debate. in light of today's back and forth, here's hoping they both make the cut.
this. today it's at 38% capacity. the water level has shrunk by 100 feet leaving vast swaths of what used to be under water literally high and dry. this is what a historic water shortage in california looks like. with drinking water reservoirs like castaic lake at such lows a lot of attention here in california is currently focused on the corporations that make a profit by bottling and selling california's water. we managed to visit one of those bottling plants. what we found out, next. today her doctor has her on a bayer aspirin regimen to help reduce the risk of another one. if you've had a heart attack be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen.
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and bottom line save more money. together, we're building a better california. the drought here in california has certainly produced its fair share of cartoon villains. villains like the almond which takes over a gallon of water to produce just one. actor tom selleck who now has to pay more than $21,000 to settle a lawsuit alleging he stole water to put that water on his ranch. and of course bottled water. california water shipped to western states during an unprecedented california
drought. >> with so much focus on the drought, private companies making a profit on california's water has become an issue of perception. more than 100 other companies already bottling and selling water in california. >> this water comes from the municipal supply of modesto, california, or sacramento, california, and those places are hit hard by the punishing drought. >> bottled water companies point out that only a minuscule fraction of california's water is used to make their product. according to the state water resources board, that's absolutely true. the industrial sector overall uses just 1% of california's water and bottled water uses just a tiny percentage of that. companies like nestle one of several bottling water in california, say they are implementing technologies to use water more efficiently. i took a tour of one of nestle's bottled water facilities in ontario, california to find out more. later i got a chance to ask them about the controversy. >> this is where the bottle starts. i mean we bring in recycled
p.e.t. we blend it together and make a preform. this is the beginning of the bottle. >> p.e.t. is? >> polyethylene terisalate. it's every container that you drink out of every day is made out of p.e.t. >> okay. >> p.e.t. has an infinite life. with the recycle rates in california, which are said to be 3% we're making bottles out of bottles. >> what am i looking at? >> this is the preform. >> this is raw material out of which the bottle is made. that's water you're bottling but any big industrial process like this uses a lot of water to make the process run. what are you guys doing about sort of rigging the most you can out of that water. >> sure. we're implementing conservation products. so there's water we're taking from the process, filtering it and putting it back -- in this case we're using it in our cooling towers, so we're
recycling or reusing that water. >> what's going on here? >> this carries the product from the filling process all the way to the packaging process. in the past this belt we would use a water-based lubricant so it would be kind of foamy and almost look like soap. several years ago we went to a dry lube. saved over a million gallons, just this factory. >> here's my question why does that decision get made? someone in the company said -- took the time -- is that because we're several years into the drought? is that because we're actually paying on a cost basis for that -- the mill on gallons of water we're using for that wet lube? who makes that decision and why? >> as an organization we're always trying to drive down and be much more conservation conscious. we want to reduce -- we have to reduce water. it's our responsibility. >> i think it is hard for people to get their heads around bottling water in the midst of the california drought. >> sure. >> people talk so much about the scarcity of this resource and
you've got farmers saying we need this to grow our almonds and you've got people in the city saying we need this for our businesses. it seems like if the low-hanging fruit is maybe we shouldn't bottle water. are people wrong to have that instinct? why should they not think that? >> access to water is essential. i mean it's essential. 70% to 80% of what we drink every day comes out of a bottle or a can. i think it's essential that people have a choice. they have a choice to drink a zero calorie beverage. whether they do it in their home, take it out of the tap, they fill their refillable container or when they're on the go. you're out you go to a convenience store, you want to have access to water. this is just a great, healthy beverage. >> right. but i mean this thing is being fought over. there's a sort of scarcity. you know you guys run a business. you guys make money off it right? >> right. >> why should you be able to do this in the midst of this resource stream? >> well i think people are --
they are buying the product. they're getting out there. there's a demand for the product. >> the same reason people grow almonds. people want to eat almonds and drink their bottled water. >> we have a responsibility. our conservation methods and the technology we're applying out there, you saw some of it today. >> yeah. >> where we're -- you know we reduce, reuse, recycle. it's engrained in every person that lives in california. they get that. >> i've got to admit it was pretty surreal to be inside a bottled water factory after we've been spending a lot of time around scenes like this. down in the central valley where we saw fallow fields and the juxtaposition was pretty intense. there are a lot of bottled water factories and they are right about the actual amount of water in the total pie chart of water used. what was most striking to me was this. the price signals for water in this great state of california, in the fifth largest economy in the world seemed completely screwy. at one point in the interview in fact if i didn't misunderstand,
he said that their internal price for water hadn't even actually gone up. something is amiss fundamentally in the way that this very scarce resource is being priced and rationed. bottled water is just a small drop of california's water usage, but in a shortage where every drop counts who gets what and what is the process that decides that? that's the question we've been asked since we've first started doing research for this package of shows. i'm going to talk to someone finally on the board in charge of helping figure out who gets what, next.
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why should you be able to do this in the midst of this resource stream? >> well i think people are -- they are buying the product. they are getting out there, there's a demand for the product. >> the same reason people grow almonds. >> sure. >> people wanting to eat almonds and they want to drink their bottled water. >> another piece people don't understand is we have a -- >> joining me now, francis spivy weber, vice chair of the california state water resources control board. i don't think i -- several months ago if you told me that you did that if we met somewhere, i would think, oh that's nice. but i realize that's very powerful. >> it's very powerful. >> you are a powerful person. >> a very nice powerful person. >> i believe it. so you've got -- let's start here. who gets what and how do you decide on that board? >> the rules were established long -- back in the 1800s and
early 1900s. we implement -- we make those laws work. >> when you say the rules, does that mean i just bought a farm somewhere and it's got a title. attached to that title is the right to a certain amount of water? >> no, no. you would have to come -- if you just bought your farm you would have to come to us and tell us how you were going to be using that water and we would give you a water right for that property. >> so i have to earn it from you. i have to come and bow before you. >> yes. >> no wonder the farmers hate you guys. >> right. >> i mean i'm serious, right? what case do i make? what if i say, look i bought this farm. you know we want to grow cantaloupes, almonds and cherries and i want to employ a bunch of people and make as much money as i can. can i have water, please? >> fortunately, in the past you probably would get the water that you needed for that
particular enterprise whatever it was. and now, however, because we're in a drought, we're having to cut people back. you said you needed a certain amount of water, but you are very new farmer. you're going to have to cut way, way back. >> so there's some seniority here. >> exactly. >> if i'm farming a farm that's been in the family for a hundred years, right? >> right. >> and that's been passed along, i'm senior in that line to get that water. >> exactly. >> so then there's also this -- there's a central valley project, a huge federal public works project for the central valley. then there's the stuff that you guys mostly do right, which is the municipalities right? >> we do it all. >> you do it all, okay. >> we do it all. >> how do we decide -- like okay i have a new business idea. my business idea is to hook up a hose in my house in malibu and make bottled water. and it's awesome because it doesn't cost me a lot of money
and i can then sell that bottled water for a dollar right? that to me is sort of like zeros in on the prime issue here. it does not seem that the inputs for whether it's industrial processes or bottling water are keeping up with the actual amount of scarcity there is. the price does not seem to be responding to the scarcity we're seeing out here. >> the scarcity is new. we've had scarcity from time to time but never at the level that we have right now. but you are absolutely right. we are realizing that what we have set up doesn't work and it may continue to work even more poorly in the future. >> so there were claims that you have out there that are sort of established that you say yes to whether it's municipalities or farmers that can bowe met essentially. >> right. so what we're asking of people is we're asking them based on their seniority, we're asking -- we're ordering the juniors to not use the water that they
might be taking out of the stream. now, some of them will have groundwater and so they will be able to keep their faurmtzrms alive using groundwater. >> for years california did not regulate groundwater. >> yes. >> and ground water is a little like the thought experiment with the faucet. i'm just going to draw it out. i can use it for my farm. i don't know who i'm taking it from in some sense. now you guys are going to regulate that too? >> well we are going to regulate it if it needs to be regulate. if the locals can't organize themselves and regulate it among themselves. in some areas, particularly in southern california you have courts that have allocated the water. they call adjudicated basins. and now people will be asked to organize themselves to go to the courts for adjudication. >> water courts? >> well no these are just regular courts. >> regular courts okay. >> that take on the water issue.
you know a judge will say, okay usually after about 20 years in court you get this and you get that and someone else gets something else. >> well, it seems to me that this -- if this drought continues or this era of climate change we're now entering strains us there's a lot that has to be done in the guts of how this system works. >> exactly. >> so people don't end up outside your door with pitchforks. frances, thank you for coming. you are a very nice powerful person it turns out. >> thank you. tomorrow we're wrapping up our week in california by taking a look at the state's largest lake. it's a body of water that was created totally by accident. once a beloved vacation spot. today it is on the brink of a major environmental disaster. we'll bring you that story, plus a look at some of the possible solutions to the drought that include taking the salt out of ocean water. our final installment of "all in america water wars" is tomorrow. and that is "all in" for this evening live from castaic lake in california.
"the rachel maddow show" start right now. >> good evening, chris. thanks, my friend. in just a moment we'll have an eyewitness account from somebody who was inside the military recruiting center in chattanooga today when the shooting started there. that's coming up in just a moment. we've got a live interview tonight with a survivor of the attack today. joining us now from chattanooga is the mayor of that fine city andy berke. mr. mayor, i know this is a day like no other for you. thank you very much for taking time to be with us tonight, i really appreciate it sir. >> well this has been a really difficult day for our city. certainly when i woke up this morning, we thought it was going to be a normal day. instead, it's really turned into a nightmare. >> what can you tell us about the ongoing response specifically about the investigation, the work that's still being done at this hour. what things aren't knowable aren't answered yet but might be soon as the investigation goes